Posted 6:09 AM by Blah blah

More about Bantering, Brains vs. Looks, and Strong-willed Women

Back to the need to banter well with your partner. Let me distill and organize what you said, Esther and Unica Hija, which was TOUGH because you brought up a ton of good points. I am lucky to have such intelligent cowriters!

1. You agree: bantering well with your partner is essential. Plus, it's rare.

2. Men tend to care less about mental stimulation from a woman, while women do care about finding it in men. This is wrong and slights women.

3. Why? Many men have a problem accepting or dealing with strong-willed women. It's partly society's fault for pushing them into this role.

4. Guys would still prefer looks plus brains. An intellectual guy can also be superficial. Don't forget to use your physical assets if you are a woman!

5. Banter is not only the skill to communicate, it's a conscious choice. Some prefer not to, or they sacrifice brains for looks when they "settle."

6. "Feminism" (in a good way) means to feel free to speak up, be decisive, and be strong-willed while dressing and acting girly and taking on "female roles." Women should not feel guilty or less feminine for doing so.

7. We don't hate men. We appreciate and enjoy them and our differences!

1. You agree: bantering well with your partner is essential. Plus, it's rare.

Esther said: "It really is hard to find somebody who is intellectually stimulating in a way which compliments your own intellectual capacities. Furthermore...it is even harder to find that somebody who can actually *communicate* and *articulate* these thought processes!! I feel the frustration."
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Thank you, Esther! One of my favorite essays is Ralph Waldo Emerson's "Friendship." He wrote:

Unrelated men give little joy to each other; will never suspect the latent powers of each. We talk sometimes of a great talent for conversation, as if it were a permanent property in some individuals. Conversation is an evanescent relation,—no more. A man is reputed to have thought and eloquence; he cannot, for all that, say a word to his cousin or his uncle. They accuse his silence with as much reason as they would blame the insignificance of a dial in the shade. In the sun it will mark the hour. Among those who enjoy his thought he will regain his tongue.

2. Men tend to care less about mental stimulation from a woman, while women do care about finding it in men. This is wrong and slights women.

Esther: "Do we really need a justification for needing intellectual stimulation from a significant other? I worry that he justifies his need for 'banter' from his signficant other when it should be other men who should be justifying their lack of need of this very quality from their women....Why *can't* men prioritize intellectual stimulation in their female counterparts more often?...Sometimes I feel really disheartened at conditions that are just taken for granted when in reality they should be questioned....I believe that women...tend to look for a guy who is interesting...if not intellectually stimulating then somebody who is just short of that capacity."
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Absolutely. The whole tolerance of society for physical beauty in women over brains has put pressure on women to play dumb or shut up to get by in certain situations. We tend to see the combo of brainy but not so attractive man with a less brainy but beautiful woman.

By the way, doesn't this put unfair pressure on male six-pack hunks to be more brainy? Haha... In short-term relationships, girls can be just as superficial as guys. We guys also have to be more concerned with our looks nowadays.

I've had women treat me more like eye candy too---someone to take to a party.

I think we guys can go more for looks over brains because it's fast food. Quick gratification. We are stressed from school, work, and the daily troubles of life. We come home or go to a club and don't wanna think too much. I think that's one way affairs get started. Men, especially those CEO types, are extremely stressed. They come home to a more intellectual but nagging wife. They want someone to soothe them, not argue and analyze them. So they go for the secretary, the salesclerk.

As women get more ambitious and overworked, they can choose a hunky but less intellectual guy for the same physical relief. Actually you see that a lot too---articulate women with guys who don't talk well.

I've tried a more purely physical relationship too. I dated someone for around half a year, and it was mainly for her sexy body. I admit it. We had fun for a while, and I needed to get my mind off of my worries. In times like those you tend to act more like a kid, no?

But yes, over time I have tended to get bored dealing with a woman, no matter how pretty, who can't talk with me. To not be able to share an interest in books, magazines, current events, the world...that's no fun.

3. Why? Many men have a problem accepting or dealing with strong-willed women. It's partly society's fault for pushing them into a role.

Esther: "Ian was talking with his friends...and they were actually discussing 'strong(-willed) women.' Dynamic personalities, moderately opinionated personalities, you name it...they were saying in general how some men just don't have the confidence for it....[B]ecause of the socialized male-female hierarchy, many men are used to these very conditions. Many men cannot handle strong-willed women, for fear that it jeopardizes their manliness, or position of control in the relationship...Men have also been conditioned just as women have...have grown up in a place in which pressure has been placed upon them to fit a certain role. That role is almost always means being the 'man of the house'--the one with the final say."
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Yes! Some of my Asian guy friends did not have much experience with strong-willed women, having been coddled by their moms or social environment. When some of them ended up with a strong-willed girl, they were stumped.

I've had good relationships with strong-willed women and prefer confident women. Shrinking violets are unattractive. BUT I don't like "masculine" women. I like very feminine women who can speak their mind and be forceful when necessary. I hate nags. I totally agree with the balanced feminine woman Esther talks about below. She's ideal.

Last Saturday, I played tennis with L and we had a long talk over lunch. My new tennis partner and friend, she is a fascinating strong-willed woman. Originally from the Philippines, L is both feminine and highly independent. She has been an HR manager at a startup, played the corporate game, and just quit her job to work for a nonprofit. That is HIGHLY strange and idealistic, especially here in Silicon Valley! She wants to focus more on helping society now and volunteers on the side to take care of kids at a battered women's shelter! She used to be an image consultant on the side, advising women how to look and act more beautiful and charismatic.

4. Guys would still prefer looks plus brains. An intellectual guy can also be superficial. Don't forget to use your physical assets if you are a woman!

Unica Hija said: Much as I would prefer men who at the onset looked for that intellectual connection with me instead of just a knee jerk attraction to the physical, the reality is, it is much more enjoyable for a man to have a stimulating conversation with someone physically attractive. If I were a male, I'd be a jerk--I mean, I'd feel the same thing! It's a reality we have to face it. Men look for the visual more consciously in their mates at the onset. And women don't....But good luck to you women who don't recognize--even ignore!-- the power we inherently have as humans with innate femininity, fluttery eyelids, curves, breasts. . . you get the picture....

I consciously choose banter and intellect over looks in the many relationships I've had because I'd rather have great conversations with my boyfriend than worry about how I look beside him. And yes, looks do fade with time. But *sigh*, sorry girls, this has NOT saved me. Apparently, there ARE smart male jerks out there just as there are intellectually stimulating women who are great to look at, too. Oh well."
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True. Although I think I have gotten more superficial about looks over time. But my guy friends still tease me about my standards of beauty. They are more excruciatingly picky about a girl's looks than I. I tend to ignore looks at first and focus on finding that intellectual sizzle, the "ping and pong" (as Unica Hija calls it) of great conversation. If that's missing, adios!

I wrote this in Feb. 2001:

I, having passed through the dork stage growing up, also have some residual awkwardness and nervousness about my looks or my behavior around "beautiful people." But note that when I say "cute" or "lovely" about someone, I am taking account of her personality and style and speech. Her attractiveness to me comes from character, personality, and looks intertwined. "Cute" or "attractive" for me is my shorthand for all that. And physical attractiveness to ME is what counts, not how much she meets the standards of People magazine. I have loved an overweight woman, dated a woman ten years my senior, gone out with a wheelchair-bound woman, and found some girls' moms more attractive than the girls. These women all had a zest for life, a strength to face challenges, and a chuckle in their voices. These qualities are universal and eternal, transcend age, and are not limited to (or necessarily in) models. On the other hand, I have been bored to tears talking to a very curvaceous woman and cut off contact with a beauty because of her selfish attitude. Some guys might just admire the beauty like a painting. They gaze at her on Baywatch but quickly turn back to backrubbing their girlfriend with the small breasts.

I highly agree with Unica Hija's second point, that women still should try to look their best and not assume brainy men (or other women) will not be influenced by looks. Women should study and understand their unique WEAPONS and use all of they've got. Sometimes I meet women who don't picture themselves as the "pretty type" or "dressing up" type. They are content to rely on their brainpower or societal status and may put down girls who think about that stuff. Well I think it's ALL relevant and important to learn.

5. Banter is not only the skill to communicate, it's a conscious choice. Some prefer not to, or they sacrifice brains for looks when they "settle."

Unica Hija: "Ahhh! I love banter--that wonderful ping and pong between men and women. That whole flirtation, mating ritual whatever you call it. I think banter is basically the commitment to communicate with another and the ability to make that connection with this other person. I mean, hey, two people can have connection. But one party may desire NOT to communicate. It's a choice....

Again, if you choose to communicate, and WHAM, you find you are able to make that wonderful connection--which is rare I tell you--with that other person, you can take it from there. So Ray, there goes my answer to your comment that intellectual banter CAN disappear and may well fade with time together with looks. It all boils down to choice and commitment, I think--what you choose to forego and what you choose to accept in the other person....

[T]o that guy who says his girlfriend can't banter...if it's the number one thing you're looking for in a relationship, heck, man, why are you with her in the first place?!"

Esther: "I like, however, how you point out that yes, due to physical nature, men (AND women) will definitely take more liking, at least at first, to the better-looking woman. I do not dispute this--however, for many, many men, this is basically their 'settling' if it means that he stay with this girl despite the fact that he is unhappy because he does not enjoy 'bantering' with this individual. No matter what, people deserve to be happy....It would be highly elitist and inconsequential, if not non-diverse, to really demand that people demand of others that they take on personalities like their own."
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Hmmm...I see what you mean, but I don't think people would PREFER to not communicate or have that mental connection if they could help it. I know lots of people who don't communicate well, and it just blows my mind why they either: 1) don't notice it, or 2) don't care about improving their skills.

Like I said in point #2, both men and women can take the fast food of physical over mental when they are highly stressed out or unhappy. Or they have plenty of stimulating friends already and want to be babied. Or want to play mommy or daddy.

I HAVE seen intellect and wittiness slump with time in someone in a bad or noncommunicative relationship. It's painful to watch, but it happens. That's why I am more open to people breaking up when that essential ingredient is missing.

6. "Feminism" (in a good way) means to feel free to speak up, be decisive, and be strong-willed while dressing and acting girly and taking on "female roles." Women should not feel less feminine for doing so.

Esther: "I guess my one objection would be with the negative stigma as well as one-dimensionalism attached to the label 'feminist'....One type [of feminism] advocates...emotional intellectualism, being proud of her sexuality if not even using it to her advantage, even staying at home to raise the kids... [I enjoy dressing up too.] I do not, however, respect the fact that just because one is 'feminine,' this mutually excludes strong-willedness or being opinionated for fear of being labled a 'bitch.'...I argue that decisiveness, strong-willedness, and all of the above be divorced from any single sex whatsoever."
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Yes yes yes, Esther! I love women who are balanced like that. Feminine in looks and style, but smart, decisive, and articulate. Hard to find.

7. We don't hate men. We appreciate and enjoy them and our differences!

Esther: "I am not saying, here, that all men are evil and oppressive. Far from it. I am not male-hating."

Unica Hija: "I am for the most part a believer in women's rights. But I wouldn't call myself a feminist. I think I am more a humanist. In the sense that I recognize that women and men are essentially DIFFERENT. I believe we operate and are wired differently. Those who say otherwise haven't lived enough, I think (I hate rabid feminists). And therein lies the beauty of the whole male-female dynamic...[I]t is those HUMAN rights I think we should focus on, not just pointing out all the bad things men do to make women's lives miserable. Men are wonderful companions. They are amazing human beings who can help open jars and fix cars."
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And I love women who love and appreciate men! Thank you. I hear ya. And we men open more than jars. :-p