Posted 8:48 AM by Blah blah

A Western View of Dating "Chinese" Chinese (Part 2)

I find all the comments below incredibly fascinating.

Last year, Christine, her Asian American girlfriends in Taipei, and I talked a LOT about this in her forum, Taiwan's male-female problems. I quote from it. She said similar stuff to Tina, but about girls in Taiwan. Here's part of our talk, corrected for grammar, etc.:
___________________
Christine:
The number one question that many people both here and abroad often ask is: Why ARE there so many good-looking, intelligent, successful, bilingual/multilingual, "quality" female professionals in Taiwan who are single? This includes both local Taiwanese and expat female professionals as well.

That does NOT presume that these women are not DATING at all but rather, that many are not in serious relationships when a lot of their counterparts in the U.S. (I'm American, so shoot me!) have already settled down.

Is it because they are "too good" for the men? Is it because men in Taiwan are intimidated by them and prefer weaker, subservient beings? Is it because there are not enough quality men in Taiwan and if so, how come? Does the culture have anything to do with it? Do these women SMELL FUNNY? Are they LESBIAN? Or is it simply that Taipei emulates the transient, happenin', city life of a major metropolitan locale like New York City and is thus not conducive for steady relationships?
___________________
Me (Raymond):
You know, I didn't meet many of those bilingual, strong women you describe when I worked in the Hsinchu Science Park [the Silicon Valley of Taiwan]. My Taiwanese roommate at the time, who preferred exactly the type you describe and regularly travelled back and forth between California and Taiwan, complained to me he couldn't find many of those girls in Hsinchu. It was the more traditional, feminine, somewhat needy type.

This female/male imbalance seems to be a problem in a LOT of major cities, like San Francisco and New York. Here in San Jose it's the opposite. We have a lot of good-looking, smart guys who bathe regularly and who DON'T look like geeks, but they have the same complaints as you girls in Taipei. If you have something unique to Taiwan that creates this problem, I welcome some enlightenment too!

I think part of the problem is pure economics. Those strong women you mention tend to go into marketing, finance, public relations, sales, law, etc. These businesses tend to be concentrated in major cities. The guys here tend to go for or have a very technical background. They tend to work in the suburbs and industrial research parks. Hsinchu was the same.
___________________
Christine:
The first "problem" I see (and I put that in quotes because I AM NO EXPERT -- just speaking from observations so nobody hit me okay) is that a lot of local men and women who are in their late 20s to late 30s+ are still living at home. Yes there are lots who are independent and live on their own in the city but there are TONS who still live at home.

Traditionally for Chinese/Taiwanese people, this is normal. Women aren't to move out until they get married and move into their husband's home, and men stay with their parents to "take care of them" and also to save money by not having to pay rent or cook for themselves, etc.

Traditional, cultural, economic reasons.

But when their social environs becomes limited to their workplace and to their homes, particularly if the parents tend to want to get involved with their personal lives, there isn't going to be a lot of opportunities for privacy and for them to meet other people and date freely, thus perpetuating a single-status lifestyle. And there's nothing WRONG with that (being SINGLE I mean) if that is what they choose, but many of them would prefer otherwise.

This in turn creates pressure for parents to want to set them up (both men and women), and after a certain point the kids let it happen just because it's an option, and many get married for the wrong reasons and then later have significant marital problems.

Again I repeat, I am NOT an expert and I have NO stats to back me up. This is just based on MY OBSERVATIONS as a Chinese American who has lived here for an extended amount of time. Perspective is all relative.

Now the second problem (there are many more) is that in Asia, as Andrea pointed out, it is "okay" (relative to the U.S.) for married men to have girlfriends. Wives don't LIKE it, some of them HATE it, but many accept it either because they don't have a choice or because "that's the way it is", as there are many historical references we can make as to why this is allowed.

Adding fuel to the fire, women in Chinese societies were considered second-class citizens from a traditional sense, and though everyone claims to be "modern" and "equal" in today's society, I still see a very large percentage of local men who are VERY chauvinistic relative to Western standards, who do not respect women, and who who feel that they can abuse their wives and get away with it. Many of the more traditional women ACCEPT this, as well.

The REAL PROBLEM arises when women break the traditional roles of what was expected of "Chinese women" in the home, get an education, and start a career, empowering themselves to eventually realize that they actually have a choice, that they don't have to succumb to tradition or to the gross inequalities that come with it.

Of this demographic group, local married women are now considering divorce, which was unheard of in the past, and those that are single look around them and think, "why need I get married to a man I have to cook for and clean after and who doesn't respect me when I can be happy being single?" This is what my local female friends say to me. The more they see of the world outside of Taiwan, the less interested they are in dating if it means they have to date chauvinistic men.

There are many other reasons to explain this social phenomena and I myself haven't thought it through entirely.
___________________
Angela:
One thought on the female/male problem in Taiwan - it's just that I would like to date someone with a similar background, bilingual, bicultural, bisexual... just kidding! I mean someone who can relate to my experiences, and so I limit myself to this particular category of men in Taipei - and this particular category of men have it so nice in Taipei - a lot of the local girls throw themselves at ABC (American Born Chinese) men, and so these men have so many options and become spoiled.
___________________
A different Christine (in New York City):
I am in New York. I am very happy to see this forum because I felt the same way long time ago. I think the M/F inbalance issue has nothing to do with the fact that most Taiwanese M & F living with their parents..or the women is too strong....My conclusion is "Taiwan has a lack of quality men to match with the quality women." (I can say this because I have been living in Taiwan and New York respectively for pretty long time). The issue is about the expectation gap, need, and demand (in terms of quantity and quality). I have plenty of female friends with good looks, good education, good job, and good personality...but they haven't even had a date for very long time. Those women will not have any problem to get a "decent" date in New York at all. By saying that, I know a lot of men will want to shoot me. But it's a fact. I am not even talking about a relationship. I am talking about "dating" only. I think the local guys in Taiwan need to know how to package themselves inside and out (it's all about marketing, right?)
I agree with Angela about the attitude of expat man including ABCs. It's too easy for them to get a Well-Packaged and Quality woman in Taiwan, because quality women in Taiwan doesn't have a lot of choices. Anyway, I am pleased that I am back in New York, where a quality woman has no problem to find a quality man.
___________________
Frosty Blue:
I am a LOCAL woman and I totally agree with the above statement. However, I do have something to say here:

ABC men will usually marry ABC women who have the same cultural background, sense of values, and related experiences. ABC men will date with LOCAL women or even have a LOCAL girlfriend after they get married, but they usually will not consider marrying LOCAL girls. I've seen a lot of this happen. It is really different for men when it comes to choosing a wife vs. a girlfriend.

Another thing is... I feel a bit difficult to fit in the "ABC COMMUNITY" because they categorize me as a LOCAL girl.
___________________
Christine:
LOCAL MEN IN TAIWAN

A local male friend of mine (Howard) once said to me that local men are "less advanced and sophisticated" than their local female peers in society, for two reasons:

1. Mandatory Military

Howard's theory is that because men must serve in the military, they are a) not allowed to leave the country after the age of 16 (I think?) until they have served and therefore have limited exposure - relatively speaking - to the world outside of Taiwan, and then b) the military service "numbs" their minds for two years due to lack of quality programs, while their female counterparts have already graduated and entered the workforce.

2. Resistance to Change

So what happens over the years is that local men, by the time they get out of the military and join the workforce, have been set back by many years in terms of understanding the world at large, and women/dating in general.

Local men, as opposed to local women, are less apt to embrace Western (or other) thought, customs, practices, and people. Some say they are more closed-minded? And, they have less experience in dating (very different from Western men of the same age) such that by the time they enter the workforce, their female counterparts are less likely to be interested in dating them. The maturity/experience gap is too great.

3. The Little Prince Within

The third factor is one I'm throwing in... though much more liberal and modern than in the past, more often than not, parents in Taiwan still tend to give "preferential treatment" to boys than they do girls.

Some say that boys in Chinese/Taiwanese families are spoiled? They live with their parents even as adults, have meals are prepared for them, their clothes are washed for them, etc. They are used to being taken care of and don't do too well on their own.

WHICH IS ALL FINE AND DANDY, except that when they reach the age of dating, their female counterparts (their age I mean) are like, "now why would I want to date a BOY?! He can't even take care of himself, how is he going to take care of me? I'd rather be single, thank you!"

So young single men date younger and younger women who are more emotionally compatible, while older women (say late 20s to mid-30s) choose to be single, particularly those who have chosen to pursue a career and are doing quite well as professionals and as independent women. Or... they date non-local men.

I AM NOT GENERALIZING SO DON'T SHOOT ME PLEASE.

I am merely repeating what I have often been told by both local men and women in Taiwan and am throwing this out for further discussion.
___________________
Jody Lin said in her blog:
And that is when it strikes me. That Taiwan is an enormous Dali canvas. That everything is the same, common and ordinary, except scarily skewed: distorted and distended to fit into this alternate universe. Because in Taiwan, men have crushes and women don't.

I think back on my pre-Taiwan days, when every girl's night out was pretense for a gab-fest about our latest crushes: the cute guy who lived downstairs, the smart guy in the corner office, the built guy at the gym. We could dissect men for hours: interpreting every smile, every conversation, every email. Even on SATC (Sex and the City), the girls get together to talk about... their newest crushes. Sure, they also spend a lot of time talking about the lack of datable guys, but who's kidding who? At least one of the girls gets laid every episode. My friends and I would take those odds anyday.

No... when I get together with other women in Taipei, we talk about the slim pickings in Taipei. Always. It is a rare day when someone actually says that they met someone. Interesting. Literate. Or even just evolved (we’ve lowered our standards some).

Ahh... but the men in Taipei. I walk down the street and am accosted by some guy professing his undying love for a nymphet or silky sex goddess (I am borrowing this term from an actual guy... figures) that he has met at the gym, a bar, Wellcome supermarket. Every time I turn around, I trip on one of these guys. They strike such tragic, pitiful figures until they reappear the following week with said nymphet or silky sex goddess draped on their arms. Then the cycle repeats ad nauseum. And this is not a white guy/ foreign guy thing. I’ve seen it from foreign guys, foreign guys who think they’re Asian (you know who you are), Asian guys who think they’re white, Asian-American guys, Asian-Asian guys, and all the others too.

Taiwan is a man's world. And though I'v never questioned the bonanza like atmosphere of Taipei for men, but why must the scale be so dramatically unbalanced?
___________________
Christine:
So very true... and if any of you foolish men out there reading this are thinking "man these chicks in Taiwan are so desperate" then think again, for if we were desperate we'd be dating YOU! LOL!